Just popped in to give this a quick bttt for anyone who missed seeing it.
Best wishes to all. :)
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
My apologies.
Looking back at the post, i just realised I forgot to include a link to the original jwfacts article.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/animals-suffering.php
It's much quicker to read. ;)
Thanks to all who replied.
Also thanks to Cofty for linking to this OP in his recent thread.
Goodbye.
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210
Morality Without Deity
by cofty inone of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
I'm leaving the site now. I hope this article will be read and used by someone.
Goodbye all.
(Thanks for the discussion Cold Steel, please reply to my points when you have time. Please do stay on topic, though.)
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
"in the end we simply don't know what people or animals gain from life on Earth."
All available evidence suggests that animals gain nothing. They suffer, then die. That's it. God doesn't prevent their suffering, despite having limitless power.
By the way, this topic is about animal suffering, but you keep diverting onto humans.
"..as you noted, what a horrible injustice it would be be to create animals, make them suffer and require their very existence from them, then treat them as non-entitities, never to be seen or heard from again."
Exactly. That was the whole point of my article. Why so many Jehovah's Witnesses, (who preach about a loving God) ignore this injustice, is beyond me.
"So personally I have to think there's a reason for suffering or there would be no reason for me to live."
Making up a reason with no basis may make you feel better. It doesn't address any of the issues about animal suffering that I have raised.
"But I wouldn't needlessly [inflict] suffering on any person or animal if I didn't think there was a purpose. If I did it, I would be a monster. And if God did it, He would be a monster. "
The God of the Bible has needlessly inflicted suffering. Read the Bible.
"Most people with pets, most farmers with cattle, know animals can ask for help."
Most wild animals cannot ask for help.
If they did, nobody is there to protect them...
Think about what I am saying.
"If one is a Christian, one usually concedes that man doesn't have the whole picture"
That is just avoiding the issues. Avoiding the contradictions in your own belief in a loving God.
I don't believe in the Bible as being divinely inspired.
But I must ask for scriptures or some form of evidence, otherwise the discussion is simply swapping baseless assertions.
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
because both men and animals are eternal beings, suffering is our lot in life. It is because of the free agency of man and the limitations God has placed on Himself while we murder and enslave each other.
Most religions use this excuse.
Animals did not sin, they have done nothing wrong.
They do not benefit or learn from their suffering and death in any way, do they?
You admit they experience emotions, and yet they don't have the intelligence that we do to read a holy book and find comfort and understanding of why they suffer, as many people do from their beliefs.
They cannot even ask for help when they need it.
Their suffering is unjustifiable.
I notice that you have not provided a Scripture to show that 'Christ suffered for animals'... the Bible only speaks of him suffering for mankind, doesn't it? He cared so much about animals that he gave some demons his permission to drown 2000 pigs...
God, if he exists, limits himself from protecting animals from suffering? Why would he do that?
Humanity has had to hunt animals to survive at times.
According to the Watchtower, God told animals to start killing each other after the Flood.
According to the fossil record, animals have been killing each other for millions of years.
So animals have been killing each other, by Gods design. Also, man has been killing and mistreating them, with Gods permission?
If you believe the Bible, God deliberately killed animals needlessly, on multiple occasions. God has joined in with humanity on that account, except he didn't even need the animals that he killed for food or clothing as we have done in the past.
Please provide any evidence you have to show God cares about animals.
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
"They feel pain, joy, are capable of self sacrifice, can improve themselves, retain memories."
Ok. If that is true, why has God allowed them to suffer?
"And even as Christ suffered for us, He suffered for them."
Can you please provide even one Scripture to support this statement?
"To think they would just end at death makes no sense. They are eternal beings, even as man."
Again, please provide at least one quote from the Bible that says animals are eternal beings.
"Perhaps animals will be resurrected..."
Why do you say 'perhaps' they will be resurrected?
You stated that animals 'are' eternal beings...
@Cold Steel
Just thought I'd pop in to check for a reply from you.
The above are questions I asked that have not yet been replied to, just as a reminder.
I really am sorry if my sarcasm offended you in any way, ColdSteel. l am wondering if that joke about intelligence was going a bit far. I apologise.
It's just that I spent many many hours writing this article.
It cost me more than you can likely imagine, my health is not great.
My article is filled with facts and logic, based on a lot of research, including Watchtower publications scientific papers, theodicy, the Bible and the Mosaic Law in particular. If anyone wants to know what I base any statement on, please feel free to ask.
To see your confusing post, with all its claims that you have not supported with anything substantial, peeved me a little, I guess.
I'm sorry that I was rude or perhaps even condescending.
I look forward to your response, genuinely. It is believers in God that this article was written for, so your part in this discussion is important.
Please try to keep any replies on topic, though, rather than posting merely for the sake of being sarcastic.
This could be an interesting thread.
Best wishes to you. :)
(I'll go back to my holiday now.)
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36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
@Cold Steel:
"are you saying God intended for man to live on Earth in a garden environment for untold gazillions of years doing nothing but tending it?"
No. Have you read the conclusion of my article?
I'm not even saying God exists, let alone saying what he/it intended.
The only purpose of this article was to help people to think.
"Animals are incredible!"
Amen to that. ;)
"They feel pain, joy, are capable of self sacrifice, can improve themselves, retain memories."
Ok. If that is true, why has God allowed them to suffer?
"And even as Christ suffered for us, He suffered for them."
Can you please provide even one Scripture to support this statement? Otherwise I will just have to disregard it as a baseless supposition.
I think I'll call it Supposition #1. It has a nice ring to it, don't you think?
"To think they would just end at death makes no sense. They are eternal beings, even as man."
Again, please provide at least one quote from the Bible that says animals are eternal beings.
Assuming that you cannot, this will be filed away as Supposition #2.
I won't respond to you any further if all you offer is baseless claims.
I've heard enough of those from the Watchtower's publications.
"Perhaps animals will be resurrected..."
Why do you say 'perhaps' they will be resurrected?
You stated that animals 'are' eternal beings...
"The only apparent difference between humans and animals is in intelligence. "
Based on conversations like this one, I am not so sure that there is much of a difference.
Only kidding. ;)
I'm on holiday as of now, so don't expect a response from me in the next week or two.
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Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
I do apologize for that long rant. Just had to get stuff off my chest..
For anyone who has any interest in what the Watchtower teaches about animal suffering and whether God cares about animals, please feel free to read my article.
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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defender of truth
Great questions redvip.
I think you would like this excellent page made by Jwfacts.
